Comment On Integration Nation

How can this ever work? I see no mention of JavaScript!

Oh man oh man oh man.  This is the first time I truly said WTF while reading this site.



And it really amazes me how widespread the use of VBA and Office is in
the corporate landscape.  I worked for a large consulting company
that did work for a large ISP/Cellular company(guess who[;)]) and it
amazed me that their project management at the large telecom company
was done almost entirely with Excel, VBA, and Oracle(??).  Of
course the crap was written by the large consulting company, and my
project was supposed to be working on replacing it with a less
craptastic solution.

There is now blood seeping from my brain....

Somebody make it go away.

aah, my eyes - the goggles, they do nothing...

And all this time I've been using java to talk directly to my database.
NO WONDER i can't get it to work right, a VB6 DLL is required!

I think it's obvious that Word documents make the best data storage format, don't you?

'tis nothing. I've seen worse.



This only looks bad because someone made a nice little visio diagram of
it, the ones you really want to worry about are the undocumented ones
that shunt BIG amounts of core data around systems.

Well, I mean you have to give them SOME credit... at least they used XML.



My brain hurts...

That can't possibly be right, there is no Oracle.

Where is the Excel Documents piece?

DavidK:

'tis nothing. I've seen worse.

This only looks bad because someone made a nice little visio diagram of it, the ones you really want to worry about are the undocumented ones that shunt BIG amounts of core data around systems.

Yeah...these monsters are best left undiagramed.  At least then its a lot harder to picture the true extent of the cluster f***.

Reminds me of a project at Enron. The user application was Delphi,
which used a VC DLL that used CORBA to communicate with a Java layer
which then updated an Oracle database and returned the data written to
it by reversing the pathway above. The user app then updated a second
Oracle database with the same data written by the Java layer.



The DB updated by the Delphi app used a somewhat well-normalized set of
tables, but this DB was only used for reporting. The actual "serious"
database, written to by the Java app, contained a single table. That
table contained a single column, which was a VARCHAR2(2048) or some
such nonsense; the same data returned to the Delphi app was written in
a single row in this table.



Kinda makes you think that the financial people there weren't the only ones off, don't it?

What we call "A bridge to far" software.

Does anyone remember the end of that one?

Well, it's using a COM wrapper around a C# DLL. No wonder it breaks if you look at it funny.

 

 

KenW:

The actual "serious" database, written to by the Java app, contained a single table. That table contained a single column, which was a VARCHAR2(2048) or some such nonsense; the same data returned to the Delphi app was written in a single row in this table.

Slow down.  Are you suggesting that you can have more than one table with more than one column?  Is that even a good idea?

Anonymous:

What we call "A bridge to far" software.

Does anyone remember the end of that one?

I've always wondered where "far" was...

The mind boggles!



Wow, and I mean wow! Who would have thought that all you needed was a
few simple ingredients to add records to a management system (Java management system, no less) :



A cup of SQL server sprinkled with a dash of access, mix thoroughly
with VB6 with a touch of MS Word, top with C# and pour into an XML
document and bake in an ATL interface with a COM workflow component
until crisp and golden brown. Serve hot with a cup of Java.

While that is pretty bad, one of the systems we use is way more complex than that and it works, mostly. Easiest way to describe it would be:

Sales info->Custom Databases->Flatfiles->Network->DB2 Database->Flatfiles->Network->Server->Parsing Process->Informix Database->Perl Scripts->Flatfiles->Automated Email to Customer->Parsing Process->Database->Customer's custom requests system->Customer.

 

A Wizard A True Star:

Well, it's using a COM wrapper around a C# DLL. No wonder it breaks if you look at it funny.

I once was forced to use a COM dll written in PowerBuilder from a Java application.  It was pretty sweet to have to relink the Java code to the COM dll every time I recompiled it.  What was even better is that one of the bright minds behind this scheme had sprinkled HALT (exit) commands throughout the dll so that if there was an error such as a missing record, I would just get an 'error occured outside the VM' failure.

Whackjack:

I think it's obvious that Word documents make the best data storage format, don't you?

Idiot. Word is not a storage format, it's a transportation format. XML is a storage format [;)]

Microsoft Word?

Holy bolted work-around, Batman!  I think we need more duct-tape!!



    dZ.

Stan Rogers:

Idiot. Word is not a storage format, it's a transportation format. XML is a storage format [;)]

I bet you could have XML wrapped into a Word file . . .



*blink*



Nevermind.

loneprogrammer:

Stan Rogers:

Idiot. Word is not a storage format, it's a transportation format. XML is a storage format [;)]

I bet you could have XML wrapped into a Word file . . .

*blink*

Nevermind.

I wonder if this system uses XML based Word files.

http://www.microsoft.com/office/xml/overview.mspx

Well at least we know what language they speak there  -  Farsi.    



*ducks to avoid eggs/tomatoes*

Do I read that right?



There is application logic in a Word file? (uses VBA to call)...



Clowns <:o)

The only thing missing is the sneakernet to transport the data from one location to another[;)]

Ken Nipper:

The only thing missing is the sneakernet to transport the data from one location to another[;)]

We had a client that would mail floppy disks from office to office.  This was only a couple years ago.

Anonymous:

aah, my eyes - the goggles, they do nothing...

You mean your SEPs broke?



Man, that's bad.

When step 1 of ANY process uses the words "Access Database", you KNOW you are in trouble...

Just today, I dug up the "Little button that could" story from
thedailywtf archives. I thought that was just the *perfect* example of
How to Do Things in Modern Windows Way(tm).



But now here is definitely something that *truly* does things in The Modern Windows Way(tm).



Now, excuse me, I think I'll stick to working with these proto-ancient
*nix things. I just hope I am allowed, one day, to approach one of
these Modern Windows Coders and explain to them what exactly a pipe
does in *nixes. Or that even Windows has some facilities that actually
allow to move data from one thing to another without systematically
screwing the data through dozen different APIs. In one way.

I think a lot of us have had to deal with this crap.  And what's
even better, Microsoft created a new market for clients who are doing
this sort of (stupid) integration... it's called BizTalk Server.



My last organization I was with was even more complex than this with
their app-to-app integration, since there was not only COM, but data
travelling back and forth from XML created through Javascript,
scheduled SQL Server jobs, EXEs run by analysts, and manual queries
that had to be ran to keep things synched up--and this was mostly for
just the apps that were written in-house.



There were only two other big COTS apps which had their own integration troubles.

A Word doc?!  Oh no you dih-int! 



This gives new meaning the the phrase 'disperate systems'.  And they ingrated the shite out of it.

Alex Papadimoulis:

Magic! App1 now can add records in App2!

you know, i'm sort of stunned by the complexity involved in setting up, managing, and coordinating such an effort between two such disparate groups.  how did it happen?

see, i have personally convinced myself that only about 10% of what we call industry involves the production of goods.  the rest of industry is centered around the task of busting open big boxes with smaller boxes in them, taking them out, and putting them into other boxes.

take these boxes out and put them over there.  this guy watches you.

what 'economy'?  the real economy of scale here is the systematic transfer of 5-10 cents on the dollar everytime a purchase is made by millions of people to probably less than 100 people total.  they tell us everyday we're consumers.  our jobs are immaterial.  they've fooled your employer into thinking that they're making profit.  a employer is nothing more than a cash dispenser to the consumers.

so it doesn't matter what kind of fucked up software two different consulting firms produced to shift some data around.  the point is those people got paid the money and they spent it.  they helped make those 100 people at the top richer.

not convinced?  go play roulette.

 

I'll probably get flamed for this but it seems to me that this has to be the result of anti-Java sentiment on the part of one or more of the parties.  If you are trying to get data into a system written in Java, wouldn't Java be the obvious choice to do that?  Why bother with all these jacked-up APIs?  I also don't really get why you need two vendors to get this done either.  There's got to be more to the story.

The link in the diagram between Innitech's and Innertrode's application
is quite stupid.   So, you use a MSWord document to link two
COM objects together?  Silly.  Could just have the VB COM
directly invoke the C# COM Interop directly.



A better idea would replace the first three areas with a web interface,
and write some lightweight loader that speaks to the Java app layer
(I'm assuming there's a need for the data to flow through some business
rules *somewhere*)... so the integration is 1-to-1 instead of
1-to-1-to-1-to1.



Most of these weird integrations that you see on the Microsoft platform
with other Microsoft apps has to do with the knowledge and skills of
the consultants involved writing different pieces of this "distributed"
nightmare.  This environment is evidence that nobody was working
together, no "standards" were setup internally to pass information
around, and so you have this data-domino game going on.



I would have found the project managers involved, burned their PMP
certificates, fire them, rehire them, scratch their eyes out and fire
them again.

dubwai:

I'll probably get flamed for this but it seems to
me that this has to be the result of anti-Java sentiment on the part of
one or more of the parties.  If you are trying to get data into a
system written in Java, wouldn't Java be the obvious choice to do
that?  Why bother with all these jacked-up APIs?  I also
don't really get why you need two vendors to get this done
either.  There's got to be more to the story.

The applications were probably added the over time.  They may have
been developed without regard for existing technology investments, so
the designers decided to go with whatever was in vogue at the
time.  The result of the integration is Frakenstein.

dubwai:

Ken Nipper:

The only thing missing is the sneakernet to transport the data from one location to another[;)]

We had a client that would mail floppy disks from office to office.  This was only a couple years ago.

Feels like Futurama to me. I recently left a place (I'd better not
mention that it was a rather large IT consultancy) that would have
output the data to Word in one location and faxed it to another if it couldn't wait for the corporate interoffice mail. (Word is
a transportation format, after all.) If it came through okay and the
addressee was aware of OCR, there was a small chance that no-one would
have to manually enter the data in the "foreign" system (which was, of
course, on the same corporate WAN as the originating system). Of
course, with their new Sharepoint system up and running next year, or
maybe the year after, they can skip the fax step altogether....

emptyset:

what 'economy'?  the real economy of scale here is the systematic transfer of 5-10 cents on the dollar everytime a purchase is made by millions of people to probably less than 100 people total.  they tell us everyday we're consumers.  our jobs are immaterial.  they've fooled your employer into thinking that they're making profit.  a employer is nothing more than a cash dispenser to the consumers.

I appreciate the sentiment and don't look too fondly on people who "make their money the old fashioned way: they inherit it" and collect the dividends, there's a big glaring flaw in your theory here.  Money has no intrinsic value.  Really there's no such thing as intrinisc value.  Things are worth what we think they are worth.  The only reason we think that dollar are worth something is because we can get goods and services with them.  What value would collecting dollars provide to these 100 people otherwise?

dubwai:

I appreciate the sentiment and don't look too
fondly on people who "make their money the old fashioned way: they
inherit it"...

I take it you didn't make your money the old fashioned way. 
Personally, if I had, I would have no problem living with myself and I
trust you wouldn't either.  This is what I like to call envy.

Well, economy is a system where limited resources can be distributed to others.



How that system works, well...  is a WTF.

dubwai:

I'll probably get flamed for this but it seems to me that this has to be the result of anti-Java sentiment on the part of one or more of the parties.  If you are trying to get data into a system written in Java, wouldn't Java be the obvious choice to do that?  Why bother with all these jacked-up APIs?  I also don't really get why you need two vendors to get this done either.  There's got to be more to the story.

And lo, ye hath discovered the WTF.

As far as the statement about economics goes, yes, this is exactly what many companies do. They will take a product, add value to it, and pass it on.

Example: Iron Ore - Mined and sold to a refinery - refined into Iron and sold to a smelter - smelted into steel and sold to a foundry - Cast into steel beams and sold to a construction company - Placed into a building and sold to a landowner

By your beliefs, the mining company, smelting company, foundry, and construction company are irrelevant, along with the transportation industry that facilitated its sale and movement and anything else I've missed. The landowner should start with a pickaxe and end up with a building.

christoofar:

Well, economy is a system where limited resources can be distributed to others.



How that system works, well...  is a WTF.

Yeah, a socialist economy.

Anonymous:

Just today, I dug up the "Little button that could" story from thedailywtf archives. I thought that was just the *perfect* example of How to Do Things in Modern Windows Way(tm).

But now here is definitely something that *truly* does things in The Modern Windows Way(tm).

Now, excuse me, I think I'll stick to working with these proto-ancient *nix things. I just hope I am allowed, one day, to approach one of these Modern Windows Coders and explain to them what exactly a pipe does in *nixes. Or that even Windows has some facilities that actually allow to move data from one thing to another without systematically screwing the data through dozen different APIs. In one way.

You realize it's called "TheDailyWTF," not "TheDailyRepresentativeModernWindowsCodeSample," right?

 

This application looks like something one would submit into a Rube Goldberg Machine Contest.



http://www.rube-goldberg.com/html/contest.htm

Mung Kee:

dubwai:

I appreciate the sentiment and don't look too fondly on people who "make their money the old fashioned way: they inherit it"...

I take it you didn't make your money the old fashioned way.  Personally, if I had, I would have no problem living with myself and I trust you wouldn't either.  This is what I like to call envy.

Of course you are right.  Let me put it this way, I don't stand in awe of wealth and the wealthy.  I don't worship at the altar of greed.  I don't buy into the theory that someones wealth is a measure of their value in society.  I also wouldn't (and don't) complain bitterly when asked to contribute a larger share of my wealth than those with less than I have.  The main thing that would be nice about being independently wealthy would be not fretting that my job will be sent overseas, I'll lose my home and not be able to provide for my child (to be.)  Honestly, if I had a large windfall, I'd invest almost all of it.  But, I'm paranoid.

Volmarias:

As far as the statement about economics goes, yes, this is exactly what many companies do. They will take a product, add value to it, and pass it on. Example: Iron Ore - Mined and sold to a refinery - refined into Iron and sold to a smelter - smelted into steel and sold to a foundry - Cast into steel beams and sold to a construction company - Placed into a building and sold to a landowner By your beliefs, the mining company, smelting company, foundry, and construction company are irrelevant, along with the transportation industry that facilitated its sale and movement and anything else I've missed. The landowner should start with a pickaxe and end up with a building.

If you were addressing that to me, I don't see how you got that out of what I wrote.

Volmarias:

...yes, this is exactly what many companies do. They will take a product, add value to it, and pass it on. Example: Iron Ore - Mined and sold to a refinery - refined into Iron and sold to a smelter - smelted into steel and sold to a foundry - Cast into steel beams and sold to a construction company - Placed into a building and sold to a landowner.
By your beliefs, the mining company, smelting company, foundry, and construction company are irrelevant, along with the transportation industry that facilitated its sale and movement and anything else I've missed. The landowner should start with a pickaxe and end up with a building.

This is my first post here, so pardon the mile flame, but I would venture a guess from looking at this monstrosity that a more apt analogy would be:   The landowner in question here is asking for a pile of Iron Ore to be placed in his Java wheelbarrow.  The pickaxe is really the only tool necessary, but what the heck, we're consultants...let's deliver a building full of iron.

mile  = mild   [:#]

Brilant! 

Well, you have to admit, it's one heck of an example for
"multi-language development," right? I mean, this thing uses no less
than 5 data storages (Access, SQL Server, Word File, XML and whatever
the Java system uses) and, if you count the various VBAs separately, 7
languages (Access VBA, SQL Server's procedure language, VB6, Word VBA,
C#, C++ and Java)!